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Thread: Artillery in the 21st Century

  1. #811

    LAND 17 was costed at $450m - $600m...

    We got 53x towed guns for our money...

    Jebus wept...
    In a low speed post-merge manoeuvring fight, with a high off-boresight 4th generation missile and Helmet Mounted Display, the Super Hornet will be a very difficult opponent for any current Russian fighter, even the Su-27/30

  2. #812

    =ADMk2;70437]LAND 17 was costed at $450m - $600m...

    We got 53 x towed guns for our money...

    Jebus wept...
    Yeah BUT be careful, we tend to price our programmes on Life Cycle costs, so includes all CAPEX and OPEX costs plus training establishment/programme, Spares for, typically, 5-10years at least, and ancillary support facility costs related to training, storage, etc.

    The Indians cost theirs as separate CAPEX and OPEX costs, no idea WHY but they do.............the K-9's are typically quoted as USD$3.9 Million each as a CAPEX unit cost, so $390 Million for a hundred..........the Indians definitely have a significant cost in-built for the establishment of a production facility in India to make the bulk of the SPG's locally (90 x SPG).......they want far more than just a hundred units so expect future orders............THEN their very low Labour Costs become a significant advantage, possibly dropping the unit cost of each SPG to less than $3 Million, possibly as low as $2.75 Million or so............

    Also AUD$600 Million = USD$435 million

    Unit Cost of the M-777 is quoted as USD$4.6 Million (source: DEAGEL.com)

    So our costs are approx. 53 x $4.6 million = USD$ 243.8 Million, or AUD$ 336+ Million. OPEX is typically calculated on the basis of being at least as much as CAPEX, so the AUD$600 Million is not unrealistic..............

    India PURCHASED 145 x M-777's for USD$700 Million (AUD$965+ MILLION) which probably includes facility set-up in India, part-assembly and then whole manufacture of the guns, with a potential of another 500+ guns in the medium term............
    Last edited by buglerbilly; 05-01-17 at 12:57 PM.

  3. #813

    Quote Originally Posted by buglerbilly View Post
    Yeah BUT be careful, we tend to price our programmes on Life Cycle costs, so includes all CAPEX and OPEX costs plus training establishment/programme, Spares for, typically, 5-10years at least, and ancillary support facility costs related to training, storage, etc.

    The Indians cost theirs as separate CAPEX and OPEX costs, no idea WHY but they do.............the K-9's are typically quoted as USD$3.9 Million each as a CAPEX unit cost, so $390 Million for a hundred..........the Indians definitely have a significant cost in-built for the establishment of a production facility in India to make the bulk of the SPG's locally (90 x SPG).......they want far more than just a hundred units so expect future orders............THEN their very low Labour Costs become a significant advantage, possibly dropping the unit cost of each SPG to less than $3 Million, possibly as low as $2.75 Million or so............

    Also AUD$600 Million = USD$435 million

    Unit Cost of the M-777 is quoted as USD$4.6 Million (source: DEAGEL.com)

    So our costs are approx. 53 x $4.6 million = USD$ 243.8 Million, or AUD$ 336+ Million. OPEX is typically calculated on the basis of being at least as much as CAPEX, so the AUD$600 Million is not unrealistic..............

    India PURCHASED 145 x M-777's for USD$700 Million (AUD$965+ MILLION) which probably includes facility set-up in India, part-assembly and then whole manufacture of the guns, with a potential of another 500+ guns in the medium term............
    But we don't... We don't budget initial cost estimate for projects on entire lifetime costs... For every so called 'life time' contract cost I can show you the follow-on support contract down the line... While we no doubt announce more of our funding up front, I don't see that our Army did well out of this recap at all.

    Our artillery capability is better than it was, but the fundamental drivers of the thinking behind the LAND 17 haven't gone away we have just chosen to ignore them.

    If we ever need to deploy artillery it is because our fire support needs are greater than our light armoured vehicle supported light infantry based task forces can handle on their own, which likely means we will or potentially will face incoming fires on a two way range...

    Again, we have spent our money stupidly and not acquired the capability we needed. Even with your figures, our initial plan was 35 towed guns and 18 SPG's (which were later replaced with 18 additional towed guns) and at best we'd have looked at less than AUD $200m for the towed gun component of the project...

    The SPG's did not push us out of our price bracket, we just dicked around with them for so long we gave the Labor Government of the time an excuse to spend the money on other things (Gonski) and get us a cheap option instead...

    For $600m we should have comfortably had a fleet of K9 / PZH-2000 and M777A2s. But we don't. Hopefully Army learns a thing or two out of this and the ludicrous LAND 40 AGL project. Get some capability now and 'perfect it' years down the track through MLU's or urgent operational requirements...

    Seeking perfection up front is a fruitless exercise.
    In a low speed post-merge manoeuvring fight, with a high off-boresight 4th generation missile and Helmet Mounted Display, the Super Hornet will be a very difficult opponent for any current Russian fighter, even the Su-27/30

  4. #814

    IF that is the case then I'm as confused as you are as to why we are where we are..............some Mutha has got bunches of money sitting somewhere!

  5. #815

    Quote Originally Posted by buglerbilly View Post
    IF that is the case then I'm as confused as you are as to why we are where we are..............some Mutha has got bunches of money sitting somewhere!
    Combination of Army dicking around with the capability attempting to get 'perfect' (but not pay for it...) until Government lost patience and saw an opportunity to save money and just acquire additional towed guns.

    The original budget wasn't expended and the 'savings' went to other Government priorities...
    In a low speed post-merge manoeuvring fight, with a high off-boresight 4th generation missile and Helmet Mounted Display, the Super Hornet will be a very difficult opponent for any current Russian fighter, even the Su-27/30

  6. #816

    Leidos Unseats Raytheon To Deliver Next Variant of US Army Fires Support System

    By: Jen Judson, January 6, 2017

    WASHINGTON -- Leidos won a contract Dec. 29 to deliver the next iteration of the Army’s Advanced Field Artillery Tactical Data System, unseating Raytheon as the long-time incumbent on the program.

    AFATDS is a joint and coalition command and control fires support system. The deal with Leidos sets up a three-year contract with a two-year option worth $98 million, according to an Army statement released Tuesday.

    Leidos will make “significant upgrades” to the system used to plan, coordinate and control mortars, field artillery cannons, rockets, guided missiles, close air support and naval gunfire and artillery, the statement reads.

    The modernization effort is a software upgrade that addresses both the system architecture and also the user interface. The system Leidos will deliver to the Army will have the technologies and standards to function within the Army’s Common Operating Environment, which takes stove-piped capabilities and brings them together using integrated software.

    Working within the COE is key for a system like AFATDS in order to best synchronize available fires support attack information and to ensure the right munitions are fired against a threat.

    Col. Troy Crosby, the Army’s project manager for Mission Command, said the newest iteration of AFATDS “represents a vital change” with the redesigned user interface and embedded training, making it easier for soldiers to use while reducing required training time.

    The Leidos win can also be seen as beneficial for Lockheed Martin, which combined its Information Systems & Global Solutions (IS&GS) businesses with Leidos to create a $10 billion portfolio in January 2016.

    Raytheon first entered into an agreement with the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency in 1981 to develop AFATDS and received its first contract in 1984. AFATDS was approved for fielding in 1996.

    According to the Army’s statement, AFATDS has supported operations in Desert Storm and Iraqi Freedom.

    AFATDS is 100 percent fielded with more than 4,000 systems. The newest version is expected to be fielded in fiscal year 2020.

    Raytheon said it couldn’t provide specifics on award values over the course of the program, but sources say it was a lucrative endeavor for the company. Raytheon successfully fielded 13 versions since 1984.

    The company would not disclose if it planned to file a protest with the Government Accountability Office (GAO), but, a spokesman told Defense News on Wednesday, “Our proposed AFATDS solution leverages our extensive experience and proven performance across a broad spectrum of Command and Control programs. We plan to attend the post-award debrief and welcome the US Army’s feedback.”

    While the Army would not respond to follow-up questions regarding competition details, following the release of its statement, other competitors included General Dynamics Mission Systems and Northrop Grumman, Defense News has learned.

    GD’s response Wednesday was similar to Raytheon’s. A company spokesman said GD was “disappointed” by the decision on the AFATDS competition and also “look[s] forward to receiving a debrief later this week from the Army.”

    The service said in its statement, by choosing Leidos it "used a best value, trade-off source selection via a full and open competitive strategy. Based on the market research results, the government pursued a full and open competition to implement the most innovative industry approach possible to address AFATDS 7.0 requirements while reducing risk and continuing to implement new capabilities.”

  7. #817

    Published: 12 January 2017

    Canadian army performs live fire tests with M777 155mm howitzer fitted with Anti-Jam GPS

    Canadian Army artillery gunners have run successful live fire tests on an innovative device designed to protect military Global Positioning Systems (GPS) from jamming. The Canadian army conducted the tests October 27 and 28, 2016 in support of the Build in Canada Innovation Program (BCIP), a federal government initiative designed to foster innovation in Canadian businesses.


    M777 155m towed howitzer of Canadian army.

    The tests, carried out at Canadian Forces Base Shilo in Manitoba, were an assessment of GPS Anti-Jam Technology (GAJT) developed by Calgary-based NovAtel Inc.

    The CA’s M777 Howitzers have three GPS-based systems, including GPS-guided munitions, and the GAJT is designed to ensure they are able to retain their accuracy if an enemy force employs jamming devices or in the case of unintentional interference.

    GAJT is essentially an antenna that counters any jamming signals, allowing GPS receivers to acquire the satellite signals they need to function properly. Testing with the M777s included assessing GAJT’s durability by subjecting it to the powerful shockwave produced when the weapon is fired. Prior testing confirmed the anti-jamming capability had already occurred.

    Captain Thomas Booth, Trial Officer on the project, explained that there are currently no plans to purchase more than the 10 GAJTs already acquired by the CA through BCIP but that such technologies are of interest and may again come under consideration in the future.

    The GAJT trial, and the BCIP in general, he added, are a good example of collaboration not only between government and industry, but also within the various elements of the CA that sprang into action to help facilitate the testing.


    GPS Anti-Jam Technology (GAJT) developed by NovAtel Inc. proved successful in recent trials staged by Canadian Army artillery gunners. The GAJT device protects GPS-dependent weaponry, such as the Army’s M777 Howitzers, from jamming both intentional and accidental. Photo provided by: NovAtel Inc

  8. #818

    There are some inaccuracies in this story, but notice that their idea of fast-track buy is 3 years. Thanks to budget cuts same small office presumably starts to run that project after they get the K9 buy finalised sometimes this spring. Still impressive that Finnish artilllery is actually getting something new after GMLRS and Bonus...

    Finland to Fast-Track Counter Artillery Radar Buy

    (Source: Finnish Broadcasting News, YLE; issued Jan 12, 2017)


    Finland is planning to acquire counter artillery radar systems in the coming years, reports the daily Helsingin Sanomat. The paper said the system would be completely new to Finnish Defence Forces.

    According to a report in Thursday’s Helsingin Sanomat, Finnish Defence Forces may soon get a completely new counter artillery radar system, an untried system for domestic armed forces.

    The daily wrote that officials have observed the effectiveness of the system in targeting and destroying enemy artillery and projectile launchers during the ongoing conflict in Ukraine. The Russian army has been using the system to counter artillery offences by Ukrainian forces.

    The Finnish Defence Forces say that system would be new to Finland, but it has been used in other parts of Europe, such as Sweden.

    The price tag for the system is expected to run into tens of millions of euros, and Finnish officials plan to send a request for information to the manufacturer during the spring. The final price will be determined by the scope of the system purchased.

    Defence Forces artillery inspector Colonel Pasi Pasivirta told the paper that the aim is to fast track the acquisition schedule so that the radar system will be in active use by 2020.

    -ends-
    Cheers,
    Riđđu, arctic storm

  9. #819

    Published: 12 January 2017

    Indian army gave the go-ahead for DRDO ATAGS 155mm Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System.

    The Indian army gave the go-ahead for the ATAGS (Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System) being developed by the Indian DRDO (Defence Research and Development Organisation), in collaboration with the private sector. The ATAGS is a 155-mm, 52-calibre towed artillery gun being developed in mission mode for the Army’s artillery modernisation programme


    DRDO has performed tests fire of ATAGS 155mm (Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System) in July 2016.

    The 155mm ATAGS (Advanced Towed Artillery Gun System) is designed by the Indian by the DRDO’s Armament Research and Development Establishment (ARDE) in Pune.

    In 2015, proof firing tests of the armament systems were carried out during technical trials in June and September and some initial integrated firing tests were successfully carried out in December.

    Indian military officials said they were on track to have the first fully integrated gun system for user trials by the Army in the first half of 2017.

    The Indian government informed Parliament in November that the gun had several significant features such as an all-electric drive, high mobility, quick deployability, auxiliary power mode, advanced communication system, and automated command and control system. It also boasts a range of 45 km, depending on the type of ammunition used. The gun has to go through a rigorous integration and testing cycle before large-scale induction.

    Local sources said that by the present sequence, it could tentatively be inducted in the Army between 2022-24.
    Last edited by buglerbilly; 13-01-17 at 09:54 AM.

  10. #820

    Published: 13 January 2017

    Contract for BAE Systems to provide 145 M777 ultra-light howitzers to the Indian army.

    BAE Systems has received a $542 million contract from the U.S. Department of Defense to provide 145 M777 ultra-lightweight howitzers to the Indian Army through a Foreign Military Sale between the U.S. and Indian governments.


    U.S. Marines with 1st Battalion, 11th Marine Regiment, 1st Marine Division, stand by their M777 Howitzer for a fire mission during Steel Knight 17 aboard Marine Corps Air-Ground Combat Center Twentynine Palms, Calif., Dec. 2, 2016. (Picture US Armed Forces)

    “We look forward to working with the Indian Army and providing the only battle-proven 155mm ultra lightweight howitzer in the world. The M777 will give the Indian Army superior artillery capability,” said Joe Senftle, vice president and general manager of Weapon Systems at BAE Systems. “M777 will remain at the forefront of artillery technology well into the future through the use of technical insertions, long-range precision guided munition developments, and flexible mobility options.”

    India joins the U.S., Canadian, and Australian forces in gaining the proven pedigree of the M777, which delivers rapid reaction capability and decisive and responsive firepower in sustained combat conditions.

    Work on the contract will begin immediately and be performed by BAE Systems and its suppliers across the United Kingdom, United States, and India. Deliveries are scheduled to begin in June 2017.

    The M777 is the world's first 155mm Howitzer weighing less than 10000 lbs (4218 kg). Selected by the U.S. Marine Corps and U.S. Army as their next generation Medium Force weapon, designated M777.

    Further U.S., Canadian and Australian orders total more than a thousand guns. M777 is now in full rate production for the U.S. Armed Forces and is the benchmark for 155mm Lightweight Towed Artillery Systems.

    The latest version, the M77A2 is an improved version of M777 incorporating a software update that enables the howitzer to program and fire the M982 Excalibur Guided Projectile at ranges of 40 km with a Circular Error Probable of 10 meters.

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