buglerbilly
25-05-10, 05:16 PM
From The Times May 25, 2010
Americans outgunned by Taleban’s AK47s
Marines on patrol armed with the M4 rifle. It may be the wrong weapon for the job
Michael Evans, Pentagon Correspondent
I suggest Mr Evans reads a Hell of a lot more and goes and talks to people in the Pentagon who know what they are talking about assuming there are some there who do?
The future of the standard issue infantry rifle used by American troops in Afghanistan is under review amid concerns that it is the wrong weapon for the job
With its light bullets the M4 rifle lacks sufficient velocity and killing power in long-range firefights, leaving US troops outgunned by the Taleban and their AK47 Kalashnikovs and the old Russian SVD sniper rifle.
British Forces face the same dilemma but the Ministry of Defence said yesterday that there was no plan to review the SA80A2 rifle, which fires the same Nato 5.56mm calibre rounds as its US counterpart. “We constantly review all of our capabilities,” a spokesman said.
However, Britain has followed the US in investing in 400 new larger-calibre Sharpshooter rifles, which use a heavier 7.62mm round, and are effective at longer ranges. The weapon is expected to be deployed in Afghanistan, alongside the standard rifle, by the end of the month.
The US Army, however, is looking at switching from the M4 rifle, which is only accurate up to 1,000 feet to one that fires the larger round. It is designating nine soldiers in each infantry company to serve as sharpshooters, equipped with the new M110 sniper rifle — accurate to beyond 2,500 feet.
The reassessment echoes the shooting lessons that Britain learnt in the 1839-1842 war in Afghanistan, when they discovered that their Brown Bess muskets could not reach sharpshooters firing heavier-calibre Jezzail flintlocks. The Russians, too, had problems when they occupied Afghanistan in the 1980s: their AK47s failed to match the Second World War bolt-action Lee-Enfield and Mauser rifles used by the Mujahidin.
The US experience, in contrast, was gleaned in Vietnam. The early standard rifle was the M14, which fired 7.62mm rounds but was judged to be too heavy in jungle warfare and was replaced by a lighter-firing rifle that became the M4.
The M4 and the SA80A2 work well in battles at close quarters, such as the narrow streets of Basra in southern Iraq. However, they are less effective in the rural environment of Helmand province, where the Taleban are often positioned more than 300 metres away, making them harder to hit.
The age-old AK47 uses a heavier round, which travels farther and with greater accuracy. More successful Taleban sniping in recent months has heightened concerns, prompting the US Army to consider reverting to the heavier ammunition that was rejected in the 1960s during Vietnam.
Charles Heyman, editor of The Armed Forces of the United Kingdom, said that it was important to have a range of weapons for different circumstances. But he said: “You can carry far more 5.56mm rounds than 7.62mm, so there are arguments both ways.”
US special forces are also to be given a new supergun this summer, the XM25 grenade-launcher, which is capable of showering the Taleban with grenades from more than 700 metres away.
One comment in response to this............
Jaime Smith wrote:
Coming from someone who used this rifle in actual combat in Afghanistan, I have to say the author of this article needs to do a bit more research. The M-16/M4 series of rifles is extremely accurate well past the ranges at which the typical solider can actually shoot them effectively. At 800 yards, the M4 can hold groups that are still smaller than the chest area of an average human, while the AK-47 can barely do the same thing at 200 yards.
As for the stopping power of the 5.56 round compared to the 7.62, even that is debatable due to the higher velocity of the 5.56.
In my opinion the only shortcoming to the M-16/M4 family is the fact that the design tends to jam more often than other comparable rifles. Of course on the other hand the jamming is caused by the fact that the rifle has much closer tolerances so that it can achieve it's higher accuracy. Give with one hand and take with the other....what can you do?
May 25, 2010 3:26 PM BST on community.timesonline.co.uk
Americans outgunned by Taleban’s AK47s
Marines on patrol armed with the M4 rifle. It may be the wrong weapon for the job
Michael Evans, Pentagon Correspondent
I suggest Mr Evans reads a Hell of a lot more and goes and talks to people in the Pentagon who know what they are talking about assuming there are some there who do?
The future of the standard issue infantry rifle used by American troops in Afghanistan is under review amid concerns that it is the wrong weapon for the job
With its light bullets the M4 rifle lacks sufficient velocity and killing power in long-range firefights, leaving US troops outgunned by the Taleban and their AK47 Kalashnikovs and the old Russian SVD sniper rifle.
British Forces face the same dilemma but the Ministry of Defence said yesterday that there was no plan to review the SA80A2 rifle, which fires the same Nato 5.56mm calibre rounds as its US counterpart. “We constantly review all of our capabilities,” a spokesman said.
However, Britain has followed the US in investing in 400 new larger-calibre Sharpshooter rifles, which use a heavier 7.62mm round, and are effective at longer ranges. The weapon is expected to be deployed in Afghanistan, alongside the standard rifle, by the end of the month.
The US Army, however, is looking at switching from the M4 rifle, which is only accurate up to 1,000 feet to one that fires the larger round. It is designating nine soldiers in each infantry company to serve as sharpshooters, equipped with the new M110 sniper rifle — accurate to beyond 2,500 feet.
The reassessment echoes the shooting lessons that Britain learnt in the 1839-1842 war in Afghanistan, when they discovered that their Brown Bess muskets could not reach sharpshooters firing heavier-calibre Jezzail flintlocks. The Russians, too, had problems when they occupied Afghanistan in the 1980s: their AK47s failed to match the Second World War bolt-action Lee-Enfield and Mauser rifles used by the Mujahidin.
The US experience, in contrast, was gleaned in Vietnam. The early standard rifle was the M14, which fired 7.62mm rounds but was judged to be too heavy in jungle warfare and was replaced by a lighter-firing rifle that became the M4.
The M4 and the SA80A2 work well in battles at close quarters, such as the narrow streets of Basra in southern Iraq. However, they are less effective in the rural environment of Helmand province, where the Taleban are often positioned more than 300 metres away, making them harder to hit.
The age-old AK47 uses a heavier round, which travels farther and with greater accuracy. More successful Taleban sniping in recent months has heightened concerns, prompting the US Army to consider reverting to the heavier ammunition that was rejected in the 1960s during Vietnam.
Charles Heyman, editor of The Armed Forces of the United Kingdom, said that it was important to have a range of weapons for different circumstances. But he said: “You can carry far more 5.56mm rounds than 7.62mm, so there are arguments both ways.”
US special forces are also to be given a new supergun this summer, the XM25 grenade-launcher, which is capable of showering the Taleban with grenades from more than 700 metres away.
One comment in response to this............
Jaime Smith wrote:
Coming from someone who used this rifle in actual combat in Afghanistan, I have to say the author of this article needs to do a bit more research. The M-16/M4 series of rifles is extremely accurate well past the ranges at which the typical solider can actually shoot them effectively. At 800 yards, the M4 can hold groups that are still smaller than the chest area of an average human, while the AK-47 can barely do the same thing at 200 yards.
As for the stopping power of the 5.56 round compared to the 7.62, even that is debatable due to the higher velocity of the 5.56.
In my opinion the only shortcoming to the M-16/M4 family is the fact that the design tends to jam more often than other comparable rifles. Of course on the other hand the jamming is caused by the fact that the rifle has much closer tolerances so that it can achieve it's higher accuracy. Give with one hand and take with the other....what can you do?
May 25, 2010 3:26 PM BST on community.timesonline.co.uk