Artillery Question

[Milne Bay]

As Anzac day gets closer we are reminded of the sacrifices that members of our families have made in past wars.
Our family has had kicking around for decades, these vases that have been at Mum's forever.
I have taken some pictures to see if anyone can shed some light on the kind of artillery pieces that they might have been used in.
The smaller is approx 75mm and the larger approx 150mm.
I have taken some shots of the bases as well.
The 75mm is inscribed Bourlon Wood and 1917, so likely came from the Cambrai battles.
The 150mm may be WW2 not sure, and also may have been cut down to vase height at some point.
Any feedback or comments would be welcome.
Thanks
MB

[Milne Bay]

Here are the remaining pix that would't load with the first post
The pix have loaded out of order.
All in the first post are 150mm.
All bar one in the second post - except the pair of course - are 75mm

[buglerbilly]

The 75mm round is most likely from this, the French designed and built Canon de 75 modèle 1897, otherwise known as the French 75............used widely in WW1.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canon_de_75_mod%C3%A8le_1897

Bourlon Wood is where the Canadians have their WW1 cemetry.

There was also a major action there in 1917 as follows: -


Phase: the capture of Bourlon Wood, 23 - 28 November 1917
Note: the official title of this phase is a little misleading.Only IV Corps fought for the wood itself.

Third Army (Byng)
III Corps (Pulteney)
6th Division
12th (Eastern) Division
20th (Light) Division
29th Division.
IV Corps (Woollcombe)
1st Cavalry Division
2nd Cavalry Division
Guards Division
2nd Division
36th (Ulster) Division
40th Division
51st (Highland) Division
56th (1st London) Division (transferred to VI Corps on 24 November)
62nd (2nd West Riding) Division.
VII Corps (Snow)
55th (West Lancashire) Division.

The battle

When first presented with the Byng's plan for the attack, Douglas Haig recommended strengthening the left flank in order to take Bourlon Wood very early. He wasted his breath: Byng ignored his advice. By nightfall on the 20th, it was clear that Haig had been right. From the dominating height of the wood, the Germans held the British advance in front of Anneux and Graincourt. There was good news, however, as the 51st (Highland) Division finally crept into Flesquieres, abandoned during the night by the Germans.

On the morning of the 21st, the Highlanders moved forward with the aid of two tanks towards Fontaine Notre Dame, but were held up by fire from the wood. Harper ordered a halt until the 62nd (2nd West Riding) Division had captured the heights. The latter had a violent and costly battle for Anneux, led by the 186th Brigade under Roland Boys Bradford. To the north, the 36th (Ulster) Division, planning to continue their advance beyond Moeuvres, waited for the success signal, signifying that the 62nd had captured Bourlon. It never came, for the 62nd could not penetrate beyond the sunken lane facing the wood. By the evening of the 21st, Haig was satisfied that 'no possibility any longer existed of enveloping Cambrai from the south'. The British were now in an exposed position in the lee of Bourlon Wood, the capture of which would still prove to be useful, in cutting German access to key light railway lines feeding their front. Haig and Byng decided to press on, even though it meant deepening the salient that had been created and throwing in even more troops into this northern sector of the battlefield.

On 22 November, the GOC 40th Division at Beaumetz-les-Cambrai received orders to relieve the 62nd Division the next day. The 40th was a division of Bantams, men under regulation height. By now the roads were breaking up under the strain of thousands of men, wagons and lorries. It took 40th Divisional HQ 15 hours to travel the 9 miles to Havrincourt. A relief and assault plan was quickly drawn up: 121 Brigade to capture Bourlon, 119 Brigade to go for the wood, both jumping off from the sunken lane. On their right, the 51st would move forward to Fontaine. On the left, the 36th would go in again at Moeuvres. 92 tanks would support these units. They attacked through ground mist on the morning of the 23rd. Some of the units of the 40th had to cross 1000 yards down the long slope from Anneux, across the sunken lane and up the final rise into the wood, all the while under shell fire. There was close and vicious fighting in the wood, but after 3 hours the Welsh units of 119 Brigade were through and occupying the northern and eastern ridges at the edge of the undergrowth. 121 Brigade was cut down by heavy machine gun fire, and few men got as far as the village. 7 tanks did but were unsupported and the survivors withdrew. On the flanks, the 36th and 51st Divisions made little progress, against strengthening opposition.

Over the next few days, further troops were thrown into the battle, including the Guards Division, which advanced into Fontaine. Once his troops had been driven from the wood, the enemy switched all of his artillery onto it. Battalions in the wood were wiped out. Three companies of the 14th HLI miraculously penetrated to the far side of Bourlon but were cut off and gradually annihilated. And it began to snow. The weary troops settled into the newly-won positions. The British now sat some way ahead of the position of 20th November, being in possession of a salient reaching towards Cambrai, with the left flank facing Bourlon and the right alongside the top of the slope which ran down towards Banteux.

Seeds of future failure

“All arms” fighting broke down, the tanks few and impotent in the thick woodland of Bourlon and La Folie, and defeated in the ruined streets of Fontaine Notre Dame. Behind the front, the roads resembled those at Morval a year before, the traffic unable to move through mud and snow, along roads for which there was insufficient stone and labour to carry out adequate running repairs. The “ray of hope” had become a slow, piecemeal and inevitably costly shambles. Third Army closed down offensive operations on 27 November and units were ordered to consolidate. Three days later, The German Army struck back.

Note: VI Corps (Haldane) carried out a major subsidiary action at Bullecourt on 20 November 1917, using 3rd and 16th (Irish) Divisions.

http://www.1914-1918.net/bat21.htm

[buglerbilly]

The 150mm could be the German sFH-013..........


15 cm schwere Feldhaubitze 13 battery in position at the Battle of Arras, 1917.


15 cm sFH 13 L/14 howitzer displayed as a monument in Brantford, Ontario.
Canadian link here again........

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_cm_sFH_13

This could have been found in the same area as Bourlon Wood, or more likely, just behind the wooded area...........

The same gun with modified undercarriage and pneumatic wheels was used in both German and Dutch service during early stages of WW2.

[buglerbilly]

The 150mm also compares to the British 6 inch 26 cwt howitzer (The qualifier "26cwt" refers to the weight of the barrel and breech together which weighed 26 long hundredweights (1.3 t).


Photograph of BL 6 inch 26 cwt howitzer. This is the memorial to the 71st (Transvaal) Siege Battery of World War I, at Johannesburg Zoo, South Africa. Restored by The Johannesburg Branch of the Gunner's Association.


It was developed to replace the obsolescent 6 inch 25 cwt and 6 inch 30 cwt howitzers which were outclassed by German artillery such as the 15 cm schwere Feldhaubitze 13. Design began in January 1915, the first proof-firing occurred on 30 July 1915 and it entered service in late 1915.[1] Its combination of firepower, range and mobility (for its day) made it one of the British Empire's most important weapons in World War I.

It was originally towed by horses but from 1916 onwards was commonly towed by the "FWD" 4 wheel drive 3 ton lorry as heavy field artillery. The wooden spoked wheels could be fitted with "girdles" for work in mud or sand to prevent them sinking. Towards the end of the war solid rubber tyres were fitted over the iron tyres on the wheel rims, giving the rims a heavier appearance. It fired 22.4 million rounds on the Western Front.

Again it was modified and used during the early days of WW2................


A British 6 inch 26cwt howitzer at Firepower - The Royal Artillery Museum in London.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6_inch_26_cwt_howitzer

[buglerbilly]

The British gun was common in the Western Desert and hence Tobruk.............


"TOBRUK - `A' TROOP OF BRITISH SIX INCH 26 CWT BL HOWITZERS IN ACTION AT TOBRUK."

[Milne Bay]

Thanks Bugs.
The 150mm has on the plug where the firing pin goes, the letters MOD which I presume stand for Ministry of Defence - hence probably British.
In that case would it be correct to assume that the shell-casing is intact and has not been cut down?
I assume that the British 6 inch howitzer had separate shell and propellant similar to the 25 pounder.
Interesting.
MB

[pdf27]

The current Ministry of Defence has only existed since 1964, so that seems a trifle unlikely...

[Riđđu]

Thanks Bugs.
The 150mm has on the plug where the firing pin goes, the letters MOD which I presume stand for Ministry of Defence - hence probably British.


Letters MOD in ordnance could mean ´model´, ´modèle`, ´Modell´ or even ´modified´. Therefore "MOD 905" could in this case be shrapnel shell for British 6 inch 26cwt or 30cwt howitzer which contains 905 bullets…

[Gubler, A.]

No British shell of the 1910s would have metric measurements on it. The letter codes on shells usually indicate the factory that built them. They all have some kind of abbreviated alpha and/or numeric code assigned. Measuring the diameter of the open end of the shell is also not going to give much indication as to calibre as this is usually measured in the barrel from the insides of the rifling which is narrower than the diameter of most shells and their driving bands.

However that “MOD.905” looks like a batch code with underneath it “M.B” indicating the name of the factory. The “149/35” is cleary a batch code and the font of the numbers indicates a Germanic source. This could mean Austrian, German or Turkish. The “UPVC” is beneath a Germanic looking crown.

For the record however the standard German artillery shells of this calibre were 149mm (called 15cm) and 77mm (called 7.7cm). The French used a 155mm heavy shell and most everyone else a six inch or 152mm shell. The use 155s now because the Americans adopted the French shell and mass produced so many in WW2 it became the western standard.

Looking at your shell casing and the big one looks like it has been trimmed but the small one has crimples along the top indicating where the shell was attached to the casing. If you really want to find out what guns these shells came from you would need to post all the base markings on a collectors forum where no doubt someone knows the source of every shell.