Drop the Bayonet Training?

[buglerbilly]

It would be interesting to hear people's comments about this?

General: Drop Bayonet From Army Training

January 28, 2010

The State, Columbia, S.C.

Army basic training needs to get back to basics.

That's the word from Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling, who's in charge of overhauling Army training.

Soldiers are taught a number of skills, but don't have the time to master all of them, said Hertling, who's assigned to the Army's Training and Doctrine Command at Fort Monroe, Va.

"We need to make sure that what we're training is a good Soldier we can hand over to their first unit and make sure they're ready for combat," Hertling, deputy commanding general for initial military training, said Wednesday during a visit at Fort Jackson, S.C.

Before the war on terrorism began in 2001, U.S. troops trained to fight a large, mechanized force like the Russian army in the woods and mountains of eastern Europe.

But in recent years, basic training has undergone a number of changes as the Army adapts to an enemy in Afghanistan and Iraq that lives among the general population and travels by pickup and donkey cart.

To prepare Soldiers for today's battlefield, a number of tasks have been added to the 10-week training program and a few have been removed, said Hertling, a former tank commander.

Soldiers are taught a number of skills, but don't have the time to master all of them, said Hertling, who's assigned to the Army's Training and Doctrine Command at Fort Monroe, Va.

"We were teaching Soldiers too much stuff," said Hertling, a veteran of Desert Storm and the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. The result was a "task paralysis" and loss of focus.

One task Hertling wants to do away with is bayonet training.

In today's wars, there's no reason for Soldiers to learn how to fix bayonets to their rifles and disembowel an enemy combatant, Hertling said. Besides, bayonets don't fit rifles Soldiers carry today, he added.

Hertling, though, conceded that bayonet training is deeply ingrained in the Army culture.

"Some of these ideas would make old infantrymen turn over in their graves," Hertling said.

Hertling also wants combatives or hand-to-hand fighting to de-emphasize grappling or basic wrestling moves. Instead, Soldiers need to learn to fight with their hands and use anything they can grab -- whether it is a knife or stick -- as a weapon, he added.

Recruits need to learn how to use their hands, the St. Louis native said. "A greater majority of recruits have never been in a fistfight," he added.

Fort Jackson is the largest of the Army's five basic training centers. About 40,000 or half of all Soldiers and 80 percent of the women entering the Army each year are trained at the Columbia post.

© Copyright 2010 The State, Columbia, S.C.. All rights reserved.

[buglerbilly]

This is the most recent incident in the British Army............in Basra..........an assessment by the US Army follows.........


Argylls fight hand to hand in Iraq

Date: 16 May 2004

By BRIAN BRADY

WESTMINSTER EDITOR

SCOTTISH troops fixed bayonets and fought hand to hand with a Shi’ite militia in southern Iraq in one of their fiercest clashes since the war was declared more than a year ago, it was reported last night.

Soldiers from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders mounted what were described as "classic infantry assaults" on firing and mortar positions held by more than 100 fighters loyal to the outlawed cleric Moqtada al-Sadr, according to military sources.

At least 20 men from al-Sadr’s army were believed killed in more than three hours of fighting - the highest toll reported in any single incident involving British forces in the past 12 months.

Nine fighters were captured and three British soldiers injured, none seriously.

"It was very bloody and it was difficult to count all their dead," one source was quoted as saying. "There were bodies floating in the river."

The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders were drawn into the fighting when soldiers in two Land-Rovers were ambushed on Friday afternoon about 15 miles east of the city of Amara. The soldiers escaped, only to be ambushed a second time by a larger group of militia, armed with machine-guns, rocket-propelled grenades and mortars.

Reinforcements were summoned from the Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment at a base nearby. "There was some pretty fierce hand-to-hand fighting with bayonets fixed," the source added. "There were some classic assaults on mortar positions held by the al-Sadr forces."

Official spokesman Major Ian Clooney confirmed the Mehdi army "took a pretty heavy knocking", but refused to specify tactics. "This was certainly an intense engagement," he added.

Details of the bloody clashes emerged amid reports that defence chiefs were privately discussing "strategic failure" in the conflict - and that MPs were trying to force a new Commons vote on the situation in Iraq.

[buglerbilly]

Prepared by the U.S. Urban Warfare Analysis Center:

Executive Summary:

In May 2004, approximately 20 British troops in Basra were ambushed and forced out of their vehicles by about 100 Shiite militia fighters. When ammunition ran low, the British troops fixed bayonets and charged the enemy. About 20 militiamen were killed in the assault without any British deaths.

The bayonet charge appea More..red to succeed for three main reasons. First, the attack was the first of its kind in that region and captured the element of surprise. Second, enemy fighters probably believed jihadist propaganda stating that coalition troops were cowards unwilling to fight in close combat, further enhancing the element of surprise. Third, the strict discipline of the British troops overwhelmed the ability of the militia fighters to organize a cohesive counteraction.

The effects of this tactical action in Basra are not immediately applicable elsewhere, but an important dominant theme emerges regarding the need to avoid predictable patterns of behavior within restrictive rules of engagement. Commanders should keep adversaries off balance with creative feints and occasional shows of force lest they surrender the initiative to the enemy.

I. Overview of Bayonet Charge

On 21 May 2004, Mahdi militiamen engaged a convoy consisting of approximately 20 British troops from the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders 55 miles north of Basra. A squad from the Princess of Wales regiment came to their assistance. What started as an attack on a passing convoy ended with at least 35 militiamen dead and just three British troops wounded. The militiamen engaged a force that had restrictive rules of engagement prior to the incident that prevented them from returning fire. What ensued was an example of irregular warfare by coalition troops that achieved a tactical victory over a numerically superior foe with considerable firepower.

The Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders are an infantry regiment of the British Army with a rich history. It is one of Scotland’s oldest fighting forces. It is best known for forming the legendry “thin red line” at the Battle of Balaklava in the Crimean War against Russia in 1854. It later fought with distinction in World War I and World War II, including intense jungle warfare in Malaya. After Iraq, it served in Afghanistan before returning home in2008.

Country: United Kingdom
Branch: Army, 16th Air Assault Brigade
Type: One of six Scottish line infantry regiments
Role: Air assault-Light role
Motto: Nemo Me Impune Lacessit

No One Assails Me With Impunity

Atmosphere Preceding the Attack

After a period of relative calm, attacks escalated after coalition forces attempted to arrest Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr. British soldiers in southern Iraq said they were “stunned” by the level of violence near Basra. In particular, Mahdi militiamen conducted regular ambushes on British convoys on the roads between Basra and Baghdad.Frequent, uncoordinated attacks inflicted little damage, although precise data is unavailable in open sources. Since the Scottish and Welsh troops arrived in Basra, Shiite militias averaged about five attacks per day in Basra.

The Bayonet Charge

The battle began when over 100 Mahdi army fighters ambushed two unarmored vehicles transporting around 20 Argylls on the isolated Route Six highway near the southern city of Amarah. Ensconced in trenches along the road, the militiamen fired mortars, rocket propelled grenades, and machine gun rounds. The vehicles stopped and British troops returned fire. The Mahdi barrage caused enough damage to force the troops to exit the vehicles.The soldiers quickly established a defensive perimeter and radioed for reinforcements from the main British base at Amarah – Camp Abu Naji. Reinforcements from the Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment assisted the Argyles in an offensive operation against the Mahdi militiamen. When ammunition ran low among the British troops, the decision was made to fix bayonets for a direct assault.

The British soldiers charged across 600 feet of open ground toward enemy trenches. They engaged in intense hand-to-hand fighting with the militiamen. Despite being outnumbered and lacking ammunition, the Argylls and Princess of Wales troops routed the enemy. The British troops killed about 20 militiamen in the bayonet charge and between 28 and 35 overall. Only three British soldiers were injured.This incident marked the first time in 22 years that the British Army used bayonets in action. The previous incident occurred during the Falklands War in 1982.

II. Why the Bayonet Charge Was a Tactical Success

The bayonet charge by British troops in Basra achieved tactical success primarily because of psychological and cultural factors. It also shows that superior firepower does not guarantee success by either side. In this case, the value of surprise, countering enemy expectations, and strict troop discipline were three deciding characteristics of the bayonet charge.

Surprise as a Weapon

The Mahdi fighters likely expected the British convoy to continue past the attack. Previous convoys of British vehicles had driven through ambush fire. British military sources believe the militiamen miscalculated the response of the convoy and expected the Scots to flee.

• Although the raid is a well-honed tactic practiced by jihadist and Arab irregulars, the surprise raid has been an effective tool against Arab armies, both regular and irregular.

Irregular fighters usually are not trained in the rigid discipline that professional counterparts possess, and the surprise attack exploits this weakness.

Enemy Expectation that Coalition Troops Would Avoid Combat

Propaganda by Sunni and Shiite jihadists regularly advertised the perception that American and British soldiers were cowards. Similar rhetoric increased after the battles of Fallujah in April2004, perhaps to steady the resolve of militia fighters in the face of aggressive coalition attacks.

In addition, British convoys did not engage significantly during previous ambushes, which probably validated the narrative for many Mahdi militiamen. Because many of the Mahdi fighters were teenagers, it is also likely that the Mahdi army used these ambushes for training and recruiting. The attacks were an opportunity for young fighters to use weapons in combat with little risk of serious reprisal.

• In short, the bayonet charge not only surprised the Mahdi militiamen, it also debunked the perception that coalition troops were reluctant fighters seeking to avoid conflict.


"I wanted to put the fear of God into the enemy. I could see some dead bodies and eight blokes, some scrambling for their weapons. I’ve never seen such a look of fear in anyone’s eyes before. I’m over six feet; I was covered in sweat, angry, red in the face, charging in with a bayonet and screaming my head off. You would be scared, too."

Corporal Brian Wood
Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment


"There was a lot of aggression and a lot of hand-to-hand fighting. It wasn’t a pleasant scene. Some did get cut with the blades of the bayonet as we tumbled around, but in the end, they surrendered and were controlled. I do wonder how they regard life so cheaply. Some of these Iraqis in those trenches were 15 years old – against trained soldiers."

Colonel Mark Byers
Princess of Wales’s Royal Regiment

Strict Discipline

A crucial distinction during the bayonet charge was the professional discipline of the British troops in contrast to the disunity and confusion of the militia fighters. Irregular militia often fight with passion and benefit from knowledge of the local terrain.

Professional soldiers, however, formally trained in tactics and squad unity can often overcome these and other obstacles.

During the bayonet charge, the soldiers rarely lost their nerve and not a single soldier lost his life.

Many of the militiamen fled.

[Gubler, A.]

The bayonet charge appeared to succeed for three main reasons. First, the attack was the first of its kind in that region and captured the element of surprise. Second, enemy fighters probably believed jihadist propaganda stating that coalition troops were cowards unwilling to fight in close combat, further enhancing the element of surprise. Third, the strict discipline of the British troops overwhelmed the ability of the militia fighters to organize a cohesive counteraction.

He forgot the fourth reason: the British bayonets were harder than the chests of the Mahdi army fighters…

[ADMk2]

I think bayonet training is extremely useful. It develops controlled aggression, as well as discipline and gives a soldier a serious fighting capability should he run out of ammunition or an un-clearable stoppage occur in his primary weapon. Furthermore, it gives a soldier an outlet to get rid of a bit of pent-up frustration during basic training.

Of course I'm a big fan of the old "tools entrenching" as a backup weapon and attention should be paid to this too. The rapid application of shovel to head has repeatedly proven itself a very sound way of successfully completing an argument...

[Marc 1]

When we were first issued the F88 in 88 or 89 there was quite a bit of debate as to the value of afixing ones pig sticker to something so short - at least the SLR kept the enemy further from you. I think pretty much we felt it was worth retaining not because the bayonet makes a fearsome weapon by itself, but the act of fixing bayonets was sort of seen as putting on the "real warface - no second guesses - its on" type of thing. More psycological than anything else.

[Gubler, A.]

Dropping bayonet training has to be one of the dumbest ideas especially in this day and age. Apart from its value for aggression training, battlefield psychology, and just cutting things around the bivouac, etc. it is an actual weapon that can be used to defeat the enemy. Importantly it is also a scalable weapon. Unlike the rifle or hand grenade which just kill and seriously wound (or inflict minor wounds if an Australian made grenade) the bayonet can be used to control non combatants, POWs, etc without having to kill or seriously wound them. Which in the current *insert slogan here* type of warfare we see today is very important.

[pdf27]

Although reading that US army report, I suspect the PWRR would be upset at being described as a "Welsh" regiment - their recruiting grounds are in and around Sussex!

[Riđđu]

Attach bayonets! This might have more practical reasons. Many fear that bayonet training is dangerous and for some reason soldiers tend to lose their bayonets quite often.

[dan891]

He forgot the fourth reason: the British bayonets were harder than the chests of the Mahdi army fighters…

Well actually Brit Army bayonets are notoriously brittle and poorly made, :-) however the will to close into close combat counts for a hell of a lot and losing bayonet training would be very counter productive IMO.

FWIW fixing bayonets seems to be standard Brit SOP for most units operating in the Green Zone and its common to see it in pictures and even video. There was a priceless bit in the last Ross Kemp video when the unit he's with (Argylls again!) fix bayonets because the Taliban are flanking them, the look on his face was just gold!

The following link is an article on an officer in the Argylls who won an MC (and MiD in the same tour) with the bayonet. Love the " 'what was going through you head?' 'that the boys will love this' " comment..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/6178044/British-officer-wins-two-gallantry-awards-for-fending-off-Taliban-attack-with-bayonet.html

[Doohan]

Not disputing the value of the Bayonet but just like the F88C the M4 cannot be fitted with a bayonet. So If the US Army is moving more and more to the M4 what's the point in training for something you cant use

[Gubler, A.]

Not disputing the value of the Bayonet but just like the F88C the M4 cannot be fitted with a bayonet. So If the US Army is moving more and more to the M4 what's the point in training for something you cant use

True but the fielding of the M4 as the standard US ICW [infantry combat weapon] was more by accident than design and it was never meant to be the long term ICW. The original intent of the US Army was to be several years into fielding the bayonet capable XM8 carbine. Replacement of the M4 is something that may happen soon (<10 years) and if the US Army abolishes bayonet training they won't have anyone able to use bayonets on the new rifle.

[Raven22]

Not disputing the value of the Bayonet but just like the F88C the M4 cannot be fitted with a bayonet. So If the US Army is moving more and more to the M4 what's the point in training for something you cant use

The F88C can be fitted with a bayonet, the bayonet lug just needs to be offset to the side. 3 RARs carbines are fitted like that. BTW, M4 carbines can be fitted with bayonets as well - the lug is built in to the foresight the same as the M16.

The real thing is no matter what rifle you are equipped with, 50% of your soldiers won't be able to fit bayonets anyway as they will be carrying either a GLA or Minimi/Mag-58.

Even if the bayonet has few real life applications for most soldiers anymore, it is still very much worthwhile keeping the training. Everyone else has mentioned the benefits of controlled aggression, combat focus and confidence that comes with bayonet training (not to mention it is good exercise). I spend last year training recruits, and you could always tell the good soldiers from the bad soldiers on bayo day. It was quite funny watching recruits bayonet their foot or get knocked out by the targets too.

[Gubler, A.]

The real thing is no matter what rifle you are equipped with, 50% of your soldiers won't be able to fit bayonets anyway as they will be carrying either a GLA or Minimi/Mag-58.

Which is why we need to go back to the ole pig sticker, three edged and fluted, socket bayonet. Something that just attaches to the barrel right aft of the flash hider and doesn’t need too much clear height under, beside or over the barrel so you have all the value added extras on the rifle or carbine and still use a byonet. The M9 bayonet may be a pretty cool knife but all that bling is overkill for something that just needs to be sharp and pointy and able to rigidly affix to the barrel.


Ohh they won’t like that ‘tween their ribs…

[JimWH]

Or this bad boy: French Model 1874 Gras Bayonet

I own one of these, and in addition to it being a properly scary bayonet, it's also one of the best weighted short fighting swords I've ever met. Back when I fenced I would have happily backed myself with one of these in a fight.

[Gubler, A.]

Or this bad boy: French Model 1874 Gras Bayonet

The problem with any sword bayonet (or knife bayonet) is as Raven points out the length of barrel needed for the attachment point precludes other things being fitted under the barrel like the 40mm grenade launcher. Also the height of the sword bayonet from the attachment point to the guard means it would block the forward view of anything like a torch or NAD. The prong socket bayonet is very compact in these dimensions and could conceivably be designed to fit over the flash hider and not protrude into the forward firing line of a 40mm GL, torch, NAD, sight, etc.

[JimWH]

The problem with any sword bayonet (or knife bayonet) is as Raven points out the length of barrel needed for the attachment point precludes other things being fitted under the barrel like the 40mm grenade launcher.
All of which is true... but I do love a good sword :p

[Chunder]

I'm presuming that the enemy was also low on ammo... otherwise 600ft on open ground against automatic weapons would indicate shit shots. Doing that against trained militia/hunters may make for a very different assessment of that particular situation? Perhaps the article fails to convey the gravity of some circumstances?

[pdf27]

It is and was routine for British forces to fix bayonets before launching an attack. This appears to have been a normal attack, with the difference that the enemy stuck around to fight it out at the end of it and some were bayoneted. As soon as the press gets hold of this, it becomes a "bayonet charge".

[Milne Bay]

Or this bad boy: French Model 1874 Gras Bayonet

I own one of these, and in addition to it being a properly scary bayonet, it's also one of the best weighted short fighting swords I've ever met. Back when I fenced I would have happily backed myself with one of these in a fight.

For all its lethal beauty, there must be millions of these rusting away on the Somme and Verdun as their brave owners were cut down like grass or vaporised by shell.

[buglerbilly]

Modern bayonet...........British Army...............

[Milne Bay]

Modern bayonet...........British Army...............



Quick question - how many soldiers in this picture? First glance three.
Why has the first, a helmet on his head and a helmet strapped to his leg............... and an extra hand...............??
Because there are four men in the picture.
Took me two goes to spot them all.
Must be getting old
MB

[buglerbilly]

From The Times March 18, 2010

In defence of the bayonet: cold steel always has the psychological edge

Tom Coghlan: Analysis

"They don’t like it up ’em . . .”

It is the rallying cry of Corporal Jones in Dad’s Army — and it is still relevant today, according to the Ministry of Defence.

“Our Service personnel are trained to use a bayonet as part of their mandatory basic training. This is an essential part of close-combat training which prepares them for eventualities they may face in theatre,” says a spokesman for the ministry.

The trend in the recent history of warfare has been towards picking the opponent off long before “cold steel” might become necessary, but British troops have been forced to resort to the use of bayonets in the not-too-distant past.

Bayonets were fixed and used in the Falklands and the Army conducted its most recent bayonet charge in Iraq in 2004, when 20 soldiers of the 1st Battalion The Princess of Wales Royal Regiment attacked 100 insurgents in the Battle of Danny Boy, a fierce fight at a British checkpoint of the same name. Last year Lieutenant James Adamson was awarded a Military Cross for taking on two Taleban fighters in Afghanistan with the bayonet attached to his SA80 rifle.

British Forces now carry a greater variety of weapons, such as light support machineguns, heavy machineguns, snipers’ rifles and SA80s with underslung grenade launchers that cannot be fitted with a bayonet. However, serving soldiers still assert that a bayonet has a powerful psychological effect on the user and the potential foe, and in certain circumstances the bayonet can save a soldier’s life.

“Closing with the enemy is a massively psychological act,” says Colonel Stuart Tootal, who commanded a parachute battalion in Helmand province.

“Fixing bayonets bolsters the will to close with and kill an enemy and seeing soldiers with bayonets fixed has a psychological effect.

“I don’t criticise the US Army for choosing to focus on other weapons but, personally, while I recognise that the bayonet will be used less often, I wouldn’t give it up.”

[Exsandgroper]

Diggers get to keep bayonets as weapons Mark Dodd

From: The Australian March 30, 2010 12:00AM

THE US Army says the bayonet is obsolete but Australian Diggers will continue to use it as a close-quarters weapon.

Last week the US Army ended centuries of military tradition by scrapping bayonet drill, saying the practice was outmoded.

US army instructors say it is more important to teach soldiers how to improvise in close-quarters fighting with weapons such as knives.

But the order to "fix bayonets" would be staying in the Australian Army's basic training manual, a defence spokeswoman told The Australian.

"The Australian Army continues to use bayonet fighting to underpin its core behaviour of being an expert in close combat," she said.

"It is also used as a means to increase dexterity and fitness.

"There is no intent to remove the bayonet from our inventory.

"Bayonet fighting will continue to be used to develop our soldiers close-quarters combat capability."

Like the sharp end of the ubiquitous Russian-designed AK-47 assault riffle, the Australian-issued bayonet and scabbard together form a useful wire-cutting tool and also can be used to dig a foxhole or shell scrape.

It is specifically designed for attachment to a standard-issue Steyr 5.56mm assault rifle.

While the US Army is ditching the weapon, the US Marine Corps, with whom the Australian Defence Force is frequently involved in joint operations, will also keep the bayonet.

According to the Australian War Memorial, the last bayonet charge by Australian forces was carried out in Vietnam by 5 Platoon, 6th Battalion Royal Australian Regiment during desperate fighting on February 17, 1967.

In the engagement half of 5 Platoon became casualties.

Just who won that battle is still keenly debated. Total Australian casualties were eight killed and 26 wounded.

In Operation Bribie, Australian troops were ambushed by two Viet Cong companies in the coastal village of Phuoc Hai, then found themselves surrounded by a well entrenched enemy whom the Diggers were unable to dislodge despite the bayonet charge.

Hanoi proclaimed the battle a victory for its forces.

Cheers